Removing the center table

Topics about Class Rules and the RRS.

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Dan Corcoran
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Removing the center table

Post by Dan Corcoran »

Our table cover is really heavy, about 6 lbs. My crew offered to make something much lighter.

I mentioned to them that I heard on the annual class call that the table could become unnecessary in the class rules, and likely removed to save weight and make it easier for spin douses. They asked me to keep it anyhow, it is integral to their enjoyment of the boat when sleeping aboard and eating.

Has anyone seen a lighter weight table to potentially put in its place, perhaps mount on the mast?
30101
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:34 am
Location: Long Island Sound

Re: Removing the center table

Post by 30101 »

I'm not sure about the TPI boats but the french-built boats have the heavy house battery, along with lots of wiring, located in the bottom of the cabinet that supports the table.

I assume the goal of removing the table is a main saloon that is clear of obstructions with a flat cabin sole.

If the table and cabinet are removed, won't the rules have to provide specs for the relocation of the battery, etc.?
Bengt J
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:36 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by Bengt J »

The Technical Committee was asked to evaluate if the salon table should be listed as optional equipment, rule 4.3.12.
Our opinion is that removing the table do not change the performance of the j/109, it is more a perception of convenience/better access or lack of support if removed. Input from owners has been a mixed bag so far.
J-boats are not in favor of removing the table, it is a step away from the j/109 being a true dual purpose cruiser/racer.
We would welcome comments from as many owners as possible. Please reply to this post or email me bengt dot j109 at gmail dot com.
drosowj
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by drosowj »

I've owned my boat for 14 years and have only infrequently used the table. When we cruise, we find ourselves eating meals on deck instead of at the table. Other than as a small storage space, it provides no meaningful function. It gets in the way during spinnaker douses, packing the spinnaker, sail changes, and takes up space when below with the crew. Without the table, there is more space to move and enjoy down below, less opportunity to damage the table, and less opportunity to bruise your body. I like the permissive nature of the proposal with the option to keep it installed if you'd rather.
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Vento Solare
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm
Location: Newport, RI

Re: Removing the center table

Post by Vento Solare »

I am not in favor of removing the table. Count me as one of the owners who does cruise the boat in addition to racing. The table is used frequently and when we do races like Off Soundings or Twenty Hundred Club Cuttyhunk & Block Island races, we will have meals and drinks on the boat.

The J/109 is designed as a racer-cruiser. If the rules are changed to allow stripping factory installed items where do we end? Cushions come off, stove and propane bottle out, all the cabin doors and cabinets too?
cls
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by cls »

Thanks for taking input in this.
I support the option of removing the table. It makes for a safer and easier racing experience down below. Less to fall into and easier for letterbox drop and repacking kites.
Of course, if someone wants to keep it in, that’s fine.
I support the option of being able to remove 2 doors, retaining the head door, for the same reasons. The table and doors are easy to remove and reinstall.
I don’t support removing the stove or any other gear.
Exercising the option of removing the table and 2 doors does not alter the “cruisability” of the boat in a meaningful way. We eat on the settees or on deck. After all, we usually don’t race with the aft box or a Bimini.
As we know, J Boats have added more flat our racers to their line-up since the 109 arrived. Rather than contemplate changing to one of their new models, I prefer to permit small changes to the 109 to make it more easy to race without taking away the cruising aspect. The change to permit bobstays for the Mac keeps the boat current in terms of Code usages. Modest changes will help the fleet, in my view.
Thanks for taking a poll.
gmspine
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:28 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by gmspine »

Smee Again 141 is in favor of removing the table requirement for class racing for two reasons: our boat has no table so we would have to find one locally to borrow just for a regatta, secondly it's quite an obstruction below for sail handling and generally moving about the cabin especially in inclement weather.
George Miz
20500
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:34 am

Re: Removing the center table

Post by 20500 »

RAPTOR USA 205

Since we race 95% of the time and cruise once a season, I would like to remove the heavy, unwieldy table. Perhaps the class can sponsor design of a lighter, portable table as a cruising option.

/Ed Dailey
7200
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:00 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by 7200 »

I have raced and cruised my 109 for over 15 years. I have not found the table a significant hinderance. In fact with the location of batteries on the starboard side having the table makes a great barrier to keep sails and gear on the port side to help balance off the batteries. It also makes for a good run way to get forward.
Removing the table should have no tactical advantage but does change the racer/cruiser concept of the boat. Even the J111 has a table and I am not sure of the newer models. Allowing removal of the table and whatever else comes next may discourage the casual racer from competing, as they may feel even less competitive if they don't follow the arms race.
I am for leaving the table.
What we should be discussing is the French boats that have the batteries at centerline, with all that weight in the middle of the boat.
Ted Herlihy, Gut Feeling
4502
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:34 am

Re: Removing the center table

Post by 4502 »

I would support removing the table.
Callisto_368
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:13 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by Callisto_368 »

We have sailed our Chicago-based, French-built 109 without a table for about 5 years.

Particularly at night in big breeze and large / chaotic sea states on longer distance offshore races, the table poses a safety problem. Around the cans, removing the table allows for easier chute packing / sail handling.

Because the French 109s have their batteries on centerline in the base of the table, we have built a wood box to cover the batteries and cabling.

I understand the slippery slope argument. I don’t support wholesale revisions to the class rules. But this modification is straightforward and compliance is easy to verify.
Picante126
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by Picante126 »

We use the table a lot. Cruising and racing. Never found it in the way with full crew racing. Actually holds sails well at the mast port side and leaves runway to v berth.
I am one of the few owners (if not the only one) who has worked the bow and every job on the boat extensively (many regattas over multiple years in every position) never found the table in the way for douse or resetting the spinnaker. Letter box douse on J109? Why, what went wrong isn’t getting fixed by removing the table. :)
If the J109 class keeps changing what was a very well designed racer cruiser One Design boat we will loose more class participation of those who may be on the fence, like me, than we will gain. When changes are made to One design fleets they need to be looked at from the standpoint of deviating the vessel from its original intended use a bracket of uses. Racer cruiser vs racer to cruiser racer.... I am trying to get my family to be most of my crew. This is what the design had in mind. Not stripping it down and souping it up to be XY or Z.
The deck changes have already created inconsistencies throughout the fleet. Although they are nuanced this is the reality. I have raced on or seen deck layouts of at least 4 different J109 in-hauler systems. In-haulers are created differently and yield nuanced performance differences (No longer true OD racing). The car block change to compensate is another, I have not done this change so as to keep my deck original less cluttered AS DESIGNED. This is a disadvantage when racing. OK table out = table out. But I won't do it so again to race OD I am disadvantaged because I keep my boat original. This type of move will erode the class slowly but surely.
DON’T CHANGE A ONE DESIGN BOAT THAT WORKS. Look at the longevity of the 105 fleet. They still thrive. Yes, I race on 105s as well. I know the boat well, I am a member of the current J105 NA Championship crew. They don’t change the one design and remain a very competitive and active fleet. Why change it if we all have the same thing? ONE DESIGN!

Where does it end? Please stop changing the OD of this wonderful Racer Cruiser.
John Sahagian
Picante - 126
troach
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:04 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by troach »

After owning and racing the boat for a couple of years, I would vote to keep the table. The table has not been in the way and will agree that it ends acting as a sail bin on the port side settee. Keep the one design rules intact...

Trevor Roach
Incendiary Hull 168
Dan Corcoran
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Re: Removing the center table

Post by Dan Corcoran »

My vote, center tables stays.

I mostly race my J/109. Both racing and cruising we have meals on the table, go through the trouble of moving the anchor back to the rear so we can use the table, and can't imagine it not being there.

The arguments in favor of keeping the table that resonate with me:
* "Allowing removal of the table and whatever else comes next may discourage the casual racer from competing, as they may feel even less competitive if they don't follow the arms race." - Ted Herlihy, Gut Feeling
* "The table has not been in the way and will agree that it ends acting as a sail bin on the port side settee. Keep the one design rules intact..." - Trevor Roach
* "Never found it in the way with full crew racing. Actually holds sails well at the mast port side and leaves runway to v berth." - John Sahagian
* "This type of move will erode the class slowly but surely." - John Sahagian
* "The J/109 is designed as a racer-cruiser. If the rules are changed to allow stripping factory-installed items where do we end?" - Bill Kneller
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